Torpedo Frigate... and more (for 08/09)

[Carthaginian]

You need to redraw it, a single funnel won't be enough for the boilers - but TTs can be placed between funnels.

That's OK.
Now I can add in TWO trunked funnels... making her an even uglier stepsister. ;D

As for the approach question...
I'd plan to send these ships in under 'advantageous conditions' for an organized attack. that would mean after dark, prior to moonrise or set if possible. Coming in from the landward side of the fleet as they would be, they'd be hard targets to pick out in dark colored paint. They are also oil-fired, so sparks would be non-existant; and of course they'd be blacked out. I'd say that I could get almost on the screen before I was spotted, and the 4.5" guns on my ship could force the gunners on any screening DD's and CL's to keep their heads down.

The BB's would probably have a good 10 minutes to pummel them, but, like I said... if I send in 6 of these ships and sink one battleship, it's still a break-even situation. IF I manage to sink two, I might loose the battle, but I'm on my way to winning the war.

That's the whole problem, it's a wacky, crazy idea!  New Switzerland just thrives on that kind of ships!

Wonder why NS is building Destroyers and TBs like there's no tommorow? Only one battlecruiser planned in the near future.

New Switzeland offers the plans to this design for your consideration. Its based on an enlarged Mountbatten.

I think I'll stick to this one, DF, but thanks for the input. Since I have to do a redraw, I might retool her a bit. Borys's suggestion of adding a single 6"/45 cal. is one that I would like to pull off if possible.

And put a single 6 inch fore - if you run into an AMC, it will kill you. AMCs can take a lot of 4,5 inch shells, so you need at least one heavier gun.

She's figured pretty tight as it is. I might be able to get one 6" out of the excess Misc. Weight I have, as long as it doesn't kill the seakeeping. If I could make both end guns 6"ers, that would be excellent. If not... well, I'd call an AMC a 'juicy target' were I in command of this little jewel. Definately worthy of a couple of torpedoes if I were sent out strictly to wreak havoc on merchant shipping (which these little guys have a good 10 years left to do).

[Borys]

Ahoj!
An AMC will have 6-10 6 inchers on her ....

Borys

[Desertfox]

A big one that is, most AMCs have no more than 2x6", WWII German ones had 6x6" (3 per side). Plus looking at the results of the Indian Ocean Battle the AMC wuld have at most 1 minute to blast this ship before the torpedoes arrived.

[Korpen]

The Swiss Long Lances have an effective range of 5,000 yds. Box in the battleline and add further targets to the mix, and the battleline's job has just become much more complicated, especially if the attack is during low visibility.

No unguided torpedo has a "effective" range of almost 50hm against a manouvering target.
If the ship is moving away from you at 45 degrees and you need to be 2000 yards away for a maximum range shot.

Most torpedo hit during WW1 was at ridiculous short ranges, usually less then 500m...

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I'd say at least 10 minutes ...

Borys

[P3D]

The key to using these effectively is to either attack by night as NS has planned and trained for, or have someone attracting the enemy's attention, which is where CDS come in.

And it is called sea denial. You cannot hide in the open ocean during the night, and no sane battleship captain would go into coastal waters during the night. These small ships are a piece of cake during the daylight in open waters.

The planned 2x13.5" CSA ship would be perfect for that, shooting heavy shells at long range catching the BB's attention. That is a reason why NS practices long range fire. I don't see my BBs and BCs as battle winning weapons, mearly distractions allowing the real ship killers to get close enough to deliver their calling card.

And the screens will engage the each other, with the CDS/BBs shooting at the enemy screens. The TBs won't even get close to the battleships you want to target.

The Swiss Long Lances have an effective range of 5,000 yds.

5000 yards is the distance a torpedo can travel in water. Not effective range with maneuvering ships.

[Desertfox]

The French achived 63% and the Swiss 36% torpedo hit rates at the Battle of the Indian Ocean at a range of 1,000 yds.

A torpedo moving at 30 (60,000yds per hour) knots would cover 10,000yds in ten minutes. I doubt the AMC would open fire at such long ranges as AMCs usualy held of fire into the target was at point blank range. I would be more worried about the AMC replying with torpedoes that about any guns she had.

And it is called sea denial. You cannot hide in the open ocean during the night, and no sane battleship captain would go into coastal waters during the night. These small ships are a piece of cake during the daylight in open waters.

My big destroyers have the range to strike in the open seas, and areas like the DEI or the Chinese coast are pretty much coastal waters.

[Carthaginian]

And it is called sea denial. You cannot hide in the open ocean during the night, and no sane battleship captain would go into coastal waters during the night. These small ships are a piece of cake during the daylight in open waters.

That is what makes my situation with these ships unique. To enter the Gulf of Mexico and attack my ships there, a battlefleet MUST put itself in an area that is both open sea and coastal waters at once. I have three possible directions to come at a fleet from, and am little more than 500 miles from a home station at any given time. They, OTOH, are operating at night in waters that are easily accessible by 40 torpedo armed ships, which can literally aproach from every point of the compass, leaving no easy escape and very bad torpedo crossfires (not enough range on the fish to hit my ships on the other side of the fight.).

If ships like these were used in conjunction with airships as scouts and destroyers as 'sheepdogs' herding them about, I could do a fair ambush on anyone entering into the Gulf. I know that my losses will be heavy, but it's more about forcing the enemy to withdraw than annhilating their fleet.

[P3D]

My big destroyers have the range to strike in the open seas, and areas like the DEI or the Chinese coast are pretty much coastal waters.

But your tactics postulates a surprise, something you cannot get on the open seas unless you blunder into someone. And your destroyers are toast to any decent scouting/sceening force.
In WWI-II, night action was limited to coastal waters, unless it was a continuation of an already going battle. It will also be so in Navalism.

That is what makes my situation with these ships unique. To enter the Gulf of Mexico and attack my ships there, a battlefleet MUST put itself in an area that is both open sea and coastal waters at once.

Your tactic is valid for defensive. OTOH Desertfox wants to use similar assets on the offensive, which IMO is not effective.

[Desertfox]

My ships have the speed to avoid a daylight battle in the open seas, waiting until night to strike (or creating night by smoke). Much like waht both sides feared at Jutland. Besides open sea battles are rare. My battlefields so far have been coastal areas.

A decent screening force is a threat, which is why my assets are geared towards destroying that screen during the day, opening the path for a torpedo attack at night. Wonder why I have so many Heavy/Protected/Light Cruisers?

[P3D]

Nice theory, so Japanese. I.e. requiring an adversary that cooperates with your battle plan.

[Desertfox]

Dont we all do that? I mean Carthagian is planning on the enemy actually entering the Gulf. But what if the enemy attacks elsewhere, is already in and pulls a PH, or draws the battlefleet out?

You simply try to do the best you can do. In my case keeping a speed advantage, allowing me to choose where and when to fight.

[Carthaginian]

Dont we all do that? I mean Carthagian is planning on the enemy actually entering the Gulf. But what if the enemy attacks elsewhere, is already in and pulls a PH, or draws the battlefleet out?

Well, it's hard to get in without me knowing... either myself or Gran Colombia will find out that a battlefleet is aproaching, and out of courtesy I'd let GC know about any ships hostile to them entering the Gulf. As things stand right now- peaceful and cooperative- between the two of us, I hope they'd reciprocate. I also have at two airships up over the Gulf every fair weather day, with a good 150 miles of visability each. They patrol along the Florida Straits, the easiest access to my territorial waters. I have constant cruiser and torpedo ram patrols along the coast (aprox 500-1000 n mi out); it's my ships getting exercise, but they always go loaded. Add to this the fact that it's not a really big body of water... and well, it's not hard for me to see someone coming to knock on my door- or break in through a window. During wartime... well, my enemies wouldn't like that situation at all. There'd be 2-3+ battleships, 7 armored cruisers and 20+ protected cruisers steaming around with blood in their eyes... not to mention 6 subs sneaking about around the juciest targets. ;D


As for them not entering the Gulf... well, I might send the battleships and AC's out to suplement another station, but I'd always have a decent area denial force in the Gulf. One would have the devil's own time getting me out of there; most of my resources that I can't produce are imported by land, and those are few indeed. I have no far-flung colonies that require my fleet to sortie. I can become defensive and actually profit in most circumstances. I have the OTL Hochseeflote's strategy, but a situation where it's actually somewhat workable.

[Desertfox]

Just using you as an example. But what if its Gran Columbia? As I just found out, you can find yourself fighting what you thought where friends or even allies. Never planned on fighting the Dutch but fortunately have the forces to fight them on more than equal terms.

[The Rock Doctor]

One assumes he re-positions his scouting forces to watch the passages between the various islands, sits back to savor his rapidly-dwindling coffee supplies, and awaits my next fiendish move.