Brandenburgian New Ships for 1908 (War Permitting)

[swamphen]

The Merchantile Hunter

Based on a design by delcyros on the NavWeaps board (mucho thanks).

Intended to use the all oil firing tech that should become available in 1908. The 50mm gun forwards is an anti-baloon/anti-Zeppelin weapon.

These ships were originally in the building plan for 1911, however it was decided to move them up (even if it required a reduced standard) due to world events.

Orion
Herkules
Perseus
Bärenhüter
Schlangenträger

SMS Orion, German Kaufmannjaeger laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   2,978 t light; 3,097 t standard; 3,850 t normal; 4,453 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   396.98 ft / 393.70 ft x 39.37 ft x 16.40 ft (normal load)
   121.00 m / 120.00 m x 12.00 m  x 5.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1901 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1901 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
          Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      1 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      2 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships

   Weight of broadside 687 lbs / 312 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

   4 - 17.7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      0.79" / 20 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:      Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm            -
   2nd:      1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      0.79" / 20 mm
   3rd:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 28,500 shp / 21,261 Kw = 27.05 kts
   Range 15,000nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,356 tons)

Complement:
   243 - 317

Cost:
   £0.360 million / $1.438 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 88 tons, 2.3 %
   Armour: 186 tons, 4.8 %
      - Belts: 136 tons, 3.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 40 tons, 1.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 10 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,295 tons, 33.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,359 tons, 35.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 872 tons, 22.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,104 lbs / 1,408 Kg = 30.1 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 11.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.530
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Mid (44 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:         13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.85 ft / 5.13 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 127.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,617 Square feet or 986 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 65 lbs/sq ft or 317 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 2.64
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

20 t. rescue equipment
20 t. reserved for valuable goods or additional stocks
10 t. Markoni

[Desertfox]

Interesting ship even if the gun arrangement is a bit strange. Will have to come up with a suitable counter as the Seawolfs are too short legged and Auroras too big.

Why a belt? Wouldnt deck armor be better?

[Borys]

kreuzer ...

[Earl822]

That belt would only provide splinter protection.

[swamphen]

Gun arrangement is something like
X--x--X
x-----x
x-----x
X-----X
---X---
---X---

The belt armour is intended to stop splinters and small-arms fire in case a seizure goes south.

Borys: yeah, it's more like a small cruiser, however given its specialised role the KM designates it differently. ;)

[Borys]

Ahoj!
For all intents and purposes its a cruiser. But you can call it Todtsterne :) if you wish.
If it is to chase commerce then it is over-armed. One or two six incher, with two braces of four inchers are aplenty for that role.

Borys

[P3D]

I won't put oil firing into a commerce raider. It should be able to recoal from prizes, while an oil-fired version must return to base.

NTM that you will have even more oil consumption. Your resources are adequate for your military, but then your civilian economy would suffer from lack of oil. Although the motorization of DKB is lagging behind relatively (if we determine motorization based on GDP/capita).

[swamphen]

Well the original 1911 version was to have diesel/oil-firing steam power.

Here's a revised, coal-firing version of the cheapo cruiser:

SMS Orion, German Kaufmannjaeger laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3,086 t light; 3,189 t standard; 3,850 t normal; 4,380 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   396.98 ft / 393.70 ft x 39.37 ft x 16.40 ft (normal load)
   121.00 m / 120.00 m x 12.00 m  x 5.00 m

Armament:
      2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1901 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 287 lbs / 130 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 17.7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   0.79" / 20 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      0.79" / 20 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 0.79" / 20 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 28,500 shp / 21,261 Kw = 27.05 kts
   Range 10,500nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,191 tons)

Complement:
   243 - 317

Cost:
   £0.332 million / $1.328 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 36 tons, 0.9 %
   Armour: 319 tons, 8.3 %
      - Belts: 136 tons, 3.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 17 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 155 tons, 4.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 10 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,384 tons, 35.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,298 tons, 33.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 765 tons, 19.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,225 lbs / 1,463 Kg = 31.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 11.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.54

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.530
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Mid (44 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.85 ft / 5.13 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,617 Square feet or 986 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 62 lbs/sq ft or 303 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.61
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Very nice!
One could complain about low number of rounds for the 6 inchers, but IMO the planned mission of this vessel does not require that . I think the modern term would be OPV?
Now build 6-8 of them.
Borys

[swamphen]

Kleiner Kreuzer 1908



SMS Gefion, DKB Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3,985 t light; 4,131 t standard; 4,934 t normal; 5,577 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   442.91 ft / 442.91 ft x 45.93 ft x 18.86 ft (normal load)
   135.00 m / 135.00 m x 14.00 m  x 5.75 m

Armament:
      2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1901 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 496 lbs / 225 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

   2 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm            -
   2nd:      1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm            -
   3rd:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 36,000 shp / 26,856 Kw = 28.15 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,446 tons)

Complement:
   293 - 382

Cost:
   £0.421 million / $1.686 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 63 tons, 1.3 %
   Armour: 541 tons, 11.0 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 43 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 473 tons, 9.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 25 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1,636 tons, 33.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,645 tons, 33.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 950 tons, 19.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,818 lbs / 1,732 Kg = 37.1 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 12.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         18.47 ft / 5.63 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Stern:         14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      15.50 ft / 4.73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,977 Square feet or 1,206 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 358 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.66
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[swamphen]

U-Boot 1908

SMS U-2
SMS U-3
SMS U-4

Surfaced displacement, 341 tons
Submerged displacement, 430 tons
Guns: 1 x 37mm Hotchkiss type
Torpedoes: 2 x 350mm bow tubes, 4 eels
Machinery: 2 shafts, 550hp, 12.5 knots surfaced, 9.5 knots submerged; surface range 1600 miles at 12.5 knots, submerged 50 miles at 5 knots.
Diving depth, 98 feet.
Complement: 24

[P3D]

The protected cruiser Armor with sloped deck and no belt armor makes sense only with coal bunkers to provide additional protection. If you are relying on oil-firing only, you should built a belted cruiser.

Also, put a range figure to your subs.

[swamphen]

The protected cruiser Armor with sloped deck and no belt armor makes sense only with coal bunkers to provide additional protection. If you are relying on oil-firing only, you should built a belted cruiser.

Well this is the first AOF combatant for the Kriegsmarine, so we'll assume they make a mistake on this one, the scorpions get that much more outnumbered, and I'll put belt armour on the next design. ;)

Finding data for the old U-boats is very hard; Jane's WWI has everything but. A NOVA webpage gives 2,000 miles for U-1 but that seems excessive to me...so a guesstimate of 1,000 miles for U-1 and 1,500 for the U-2 class - all surfaced range, of course.

[Borys]

http://www.uboat.net/wwi/

http://www.uboat.net/wwi/types/

[swamphen]

Ah! A hundered thousand thanks. :)