Ukraine Battleship

[nikitol]

Bogdan Hmelnitsky, Ukraine Battleship  laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   17 693 t light; 18 573 t standard; 19 568 t normal; 20 365 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556,76 ft / 551,18 ft x 85,30 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   169,70 m / 168,00 m x 26,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 865,70lbs / 392,68kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      20 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 107,15lbs / 48,60kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all forward
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      20 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all aft
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 9 326 lbs / 4 230 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   2 - 17,7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10,6" / 270 mm   370,73 ft / 113,00 m   11,09 ft / 3,38 m
   Ends:   2,76" / 70 mm   160,07 ft / 48,79 m   11,09 ft / 3,38 m
     20,37 ft / 6,21 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   3,54" / 90 mm   358,27 ft / 109,20 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 103% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,36" / 60 mm   358,27 ft / 109,20 m   24,18 ft / 7,37 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10,6" / 270 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      10,6" / 270 mm
   2nd:   3,54" / 90 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 10,63" / 270 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 38 214 shp / 28 507 Kw = 23,00 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 792 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   826 - 1 075

Cost:
   £1,866 million / $7,464 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 166 tons, 6,0%
   Armour: 6 431 tons, 32,9%
      - Belts: 2 513 tons, 12,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 757 tons, 3,9%
      - Armament: 2 034 tons, 10,4%
      - Armour Deck: 960 tons, 4,9%
      - Conning Tower: 166 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 1 911 tons, 9,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 985 tons, 40,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 876 tons, 9,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26 107 lbs / 11 842 Kg = 30,2 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 4,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,05
   Metacentric height 4,3 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 17,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,91
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,52

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,555
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,46 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      26,25 ft / 8,00 m (19,69 ft / 6,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,90 ft / 6,68 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 166,0%
   Waterplane Area: 32 967 Square feet or 3 063 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 810 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,93
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Some minor comments:
- 20x6 inch is a bit unusual, most ships carried 12-16
- mounting them all forward is also unusual - nothing to shoot at aft? - and might be dificult on practical grounds
- the 20x3 inchers are OK - battleships had them al over the place, sticking out at various positions
- 90 rounds for Main Battery is the lower limit, but still acceptable
- Main Belt is on the thin side
- upper belt is rather thin - at Tsushima ranges at which we fight it will stop 6 inch shells at over 6000 yards
- Torpedo Bulkhead - my opinion is that anything thicker than 1,5 inch/40mm is overkill, but that's just me
- again Turret and Deck are on the thin side, at the bottom of the IMO acceptable range
- range is small, but you have little need for it
- as your shooting platform and seakeeping are excellent, maybe lower the a bit to improve stability - I'm fairly sure you can end up with 1,07/70%/1,48
- nice design

[maddox]

Looks almost a French desing with so many guns.
But the tertiaries I would have put in deck mounts.

A remark on  the torpedo bulkhead, there are only 3 ships equipped with them in the world, and 2 of those are the 2 superliners from the UNK and France, and there those are called a safetymessure, not armor.

The third ship is the old/new Napoleon the Great.

[Earl822]

make it 6, as all 3 of the Dreadnoughts have them.

[olekit]

and more 13 latest russian battleships  ;)
they have bulkheads 10 - 50 mm

Good design, will be a strong opponent to the Russian BB 40 ships, which are building at the Black sea :)

[P3D]

- bit unstable, you don't need 76% steadiness
- upper belt too thin, close to uneffective
- end belts too thick for splinter too thin to stop anything else
- 2 TTs are either 2 more or 2 less than desirable
- deck should be 60mm at least. Battleships these days distributed the thickness to 2 or three armored decks.
- armor is not enough to stand against anything battleship caliber.

[Earl822]

It seems very Russian, yet not Russian, if you get my drift

[Korpen]

Far from being a bad ship, i think it is bit sub-optimal

I agree with Borys about the torpedo bulkhead, more then 40-50mm does not add to its effectiveness.
And I think you could lower the freeboard, it would increase stability and give you quite allot of weight to play around with.
That should mainly be used to increase protection.

I almost get the feeling that the secondary battery in reality is the main battery on that ship?

[Carthaginian]

Given the speed and protection, it seems to be more of a slow battlecruiser than a fast battleship.

[nikitol]

Bogdan Hmelnitsky, Ukraine Battleship  laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   17 701 t light; 18 573 t standard; 19 568 t normal; 20 365 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556,53 ft / 551,18 ft x 85,30 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   169,63 m / 168,00 m x 26,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 865,70lbs / 392,68kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      20 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 107,15lbs / 48,60kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all forward
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all aft
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 9 197 lbs / 4 172 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   370,73 ft / 113,00 m   11,09 ft / 3,38 m
   Ends:   3,94" / 100 mm   160,07 ft / 48,79 m   11,09 ft / 3,38 m
     20,37 ft / 6,21 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   358,27 ft / 109,20 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 103% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,57" / 40 mm   358,27 ft / 109,20 m   24,18 ft / 7,37 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,8" / 300 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      11,8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   3,94" / 100 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 12,99" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32 191 shp / 24 015 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 792 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   826 - 1 075

Cost:
   £1,811 million / $7,242 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 150 tons, 5,9%
   Armour: 7 301 tons, 37,3%
      - Belts: 3 060 tons, 15,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 505 tons, 2,6%
      - Armament: 2 092 tons, 10,7%
      - Armour Deck: 1 441 tons, 7,4%
      - Conning Tower: 203 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 1 610 tons, 8,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 441 tons, 38,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 867 tons, 9,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25 462 lbs / 11 549 Kg = 29,4 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 4,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,05
   Metacentric height 4,4 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 17,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,80
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,555
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,46 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23,62 ft / 7,20 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   23,29 ft / 7,10 m (22,97 ft / 7,00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      22,97 ft / 7,00 m (16,40 ft / 5,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,75 ft / 6,02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149,6%
   Waterplane Area: 32 967 Square feet or 3 063 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 772 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,91
      - Longitudinal: 1,64
      - Overall: 0,97
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Borys]

IMO better. You have the strained hull waring, for 0,97 strenght. Change the block coefficent to "fatter". In the process your seakeeping will dip to c. 1,45, your steadiness will go down a bit, but you should gain a decimal point or two of stabiity.

You can also go to "coal and oil firing", with 10% of oil bunkerage. That will free up wieght.

Borys

[Korpen]

Well, there is no need for a extreamly good seboat for Ukraine, so i would simply cut around 10m of her length (on the same displacement), i think that would improve the ship quite a bit.

I think the ship would benefit from a bit more legs, 5000nm at 10kts does not allow for any periods of high speed (over 15kts) steaming.

And I agree with P3D, she is a bit undergunned, so either add one more turret or larger guns.

[P3D]

Hm...
Looking at the ship again. 8x12" on 20000t normal is on the undergunned side, but compensated by the larger number of secondaries - which would be justified by facing a large number of cruisers and destroyers instead of battleships. But not if the main opponents are battleships. Either increase gun size (8x14" for 3000t more)  or the number of guns (9-12x12").
The easiest way to save weight is to cut the length by 10 m. This could save ~1000t.

[nikitol]

I could not use oil... There is no oil at the Ukraine and relations with oil-resoursed countries are not good :)

Ukraine have no larger than 12' guns. But the ideas of increasing the diametr of 305 mm to 320mm... I'll try to calculate.

The Ukraine Admiralty investigated the modern status of the opponent fleets (Russia, Ottoman, Romania) and desided that the main enemies at sea is light forses, and the main usage of the BB's at the region is to support the Army and shore desants and destruction of the enemy naval facilities.

Moreover, Ukraine needs to modernise its fleet rapidely.

[nikitol]

Bogdan Hmelnitsky, Ukraine Battleship  laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   18 968 t light; 19 931 t standard; 21 440 t normal; 22 648 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556,53 ft / 551,18 ft x 86,94 ft x 28,22 ft (normal load)
   169,63 m / 168,00 m x 26,50 m  x 8,60 m

Armament:
      8 - 12,60" / 320 mm guns (4x2 guns), 999,81lbs / 453,51kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      20 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 107,15lbs / 48,60kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all forward
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all aft
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 10 270 lbs / 4 658 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   370,73 ft / 113,00 m   11,09 ft / 3,38 m
   Ends:   3,94" / 100 mm   160,07 ft / 48,79 m   11,09 ft / 3,38 m
     20,37 ft / 6,21 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   358,27 ft / 109,20 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 103% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,57" / 40 mm   358,27 ft / 109,20 m   24,18 ft / 7,37 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,8" / 300 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      11,8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   3,94" / 100 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 12,99" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 34 028 shp / 25 385 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 717 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   885 - 1 151

Cost:
   £1,980 million / $7,922 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 284 tons, 6,0%
   Armour: 7 454 tons, 34,8%
      - Belts: 3 065 tons, 14,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 505 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 2 200 tons, 10,3%
      - Armour Deck: 1 468 tons, 6,8%
      - Conning Tower: 216 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 1 701 tons, 7,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 329 tons, 38,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 472 tons, 11,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27 828 lbs / 12 623 Kg = 27,8 x 12,6 " / 320 mm shells or 4,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,04
   Metacentric height 4,4 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 17,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,82
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,47

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,555
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,34 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23,62 ft / 7,20 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   23,29 ft / 7,10 m (22,97 ft / 7,00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      22,97 ft / 7,00 m (16,40 ft / 5,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,75 ft / 6,02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142,4%
   Waterplane Area: 33 601 Square feet or 3 122 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 840 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,84
      - Overall: 1,02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily