French battlecruiser???

[The Rock Doctor]

I think you'd be limited to 48,000 shp by your engine tech...

[maddox]

I think you'd be limited to 48,000 shp by your engine tech...

In 1908 or 1909, yes.   
But if I'm not mistaken, the next HP rise is in 1910.
But alas, I'm no longer the only one that makes the rules and enforces them.

[The Rock Doctor]

I believe it's 1912 tech, which one can start to research in 1909.  You might succeed in gaining it in H2/10, but the odds aren't good.

[Korpen]

With everybody pushing up the ante in speed and firepower in the battleship department, France is getting in dire straits with the amount of hulls for colonial protection.
DeCreme, French Battlecruiser laid down 1910

Seriously under gunned for a ship that size, there are ships 50% smaller with equal amount of firepower, and just as good armour.

Also the 13mm torpedo bulkhead is useless as it is going to fail against pretty much every kind of underwater explosions. In fact I would rate it a liability.

But the armour is decent, and the speed is very nice.

[maddox]

Make a SS file, remove the TB,and see the ship sink with only 2 hits.

And seriously undergunned.  I beg to differ. 
These ships can stay where others are sunk. Better having a few guns less than having more guns sunk. 

[Korpen]

Make a SS file, remove the TB,and see the ship sink with only 2 hits.

And seriously undergunned.  I beg to differ. 
These ships can stay where others are sunk. Better having a few guns less than having more guns sunk. 

That would not surprise me, but when it comes to that are, SS does not always give a good guideline. A 13mm bulkhead does not add any protection for the interior of the ship, and is too weak to give any real support to the torpedo defence system. So the odds are it is going to fail pretty much ever time. And then the decreased interior space is working against the ship.

[Walter]

Make a SS file, remove the TB,and see the ship sink with only 2 hits.

That's odd. I simmed it and then kicked off the TBH and got 3.6 hits.

I'm no real expert but I have heard the TBH story before and I have to agree with what I heard back then and what Korpen's stating now. If you were to put a 0.01 inch (0.254mm) TBH on it, it already goes up to a staggering 4.0 hits but I seriously doubt that something that is as thick as aluminum foil will actually have any effect at all on the number of Torpedo hits it can take. According to SS it does though.
Not sure about the experts here, but I usually look at a minimum of 25mm, preferably something much, much closer to 50mm. 25mm should work on your design if you stick to the default length and height of the belts.

[maddox]

It's a habit that I brougth from the old forum.

Basicly, the N-verse was build around Springsharp.  A reason to design ships, and why a country would do it that way.  Then the countries and the tech tree became the limitiation on the size and technology used on the ships.

When that  came into being, Rocky was the moderator, and I was a lurker on the forum.   After Rocky couldn't combine the moderating with daily life anymore I took over.

With in the back of my mind I adapted the Mekton Zeta roleplaying warsytem to fit the SS data in.
And yes, that includes the foibles of the SS 2.1 version.


I still build my ships with that in mind.

[maddox]

With the Pacific war, the projects from "nearby countries" and several other things the Team that brought the World the Greater Napoleon does another grab to regain a place in the French ship building community.

Maxing out the dimensions of the larger type 3 slips and a try for more speed and range.

Aginco- euhm, French Turret Farm laid down 1910

Displacement:
   34.386 t light; 36.269 t standard; 40.070 t normal; 43.110 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   728,35 ft / 721,78 ft x 120,08 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
   222,00 m / 220,00 m x 36,60 m  x 9,00 m

Armament:
      21 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (7x3 guns), 865,70lbs / 392,67kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      7 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 19.258 lbs / 8.735 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   252,59 ft / 76,99 m   13,16 ft / 4,01 m
   Upper:   7,00" / 178 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   10,50 ft / 3,20 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   31,00 ft / 9,45 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 60.405 shp / 45.063 Kw = 23,50 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6.841 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.415 - 1.840

Cost:
   £3,610 million / $14,440 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.407 tons, 6,0%
   Armour: 13.111 tons, 32,7%
      - Belts: 5.094 tons, 12,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 807 tons, 2,0%
      - Armament: 4.673 tons, 11,7%
      - Armour Deck: 2.234 tons, 5,6%
      - Conning Tower: 303 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2.746 tons, 6,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.922 tons, 39,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.684 tons, 14,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     56.946 lbs / 25.830 Kg = 65,8 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 10,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 8,1 ft / 2,5 m
   Roll period: 17,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,548
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,01 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,36 ft / 5,90 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Stern:      18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,78 ft / 6,33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159,8%
   Waterplane Area: 60.374 Square feet or 5.609 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 205 lbs/sq ft or 1.000 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,20
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Or a less but heavier gunned version

Occitan, French Turret Farm laid down 1910

Displacement:
   34.009 t light; 36.069 t standard; 40.070 t normal; 43.270 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   728,35 ft / 721,78 ft x 120,08 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
   222,00 m / 220,00 m x 36,60 m  x 9,00 m

Armament:
      14 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (7x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      7 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 18.537 lbs / 8.408 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   252,59 ft / 76,99 m   13,16 ft / 4,01 m
   Upper:   7,00" / 178 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   10,50 ft / 3,20 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   31,00 ft / 9,45 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 60.405 shp / 45.063 Kw = 23,50 kts
   Range 9.500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7.201 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.415 - 1.840

Cost:
   £3,521 million / $14,085 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.317 tons, 5,8%
   Armour: 12.858 tons, 32,1%
      - Belts: 5.096 tons, 12,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 807 tons, 2,0%
      - Armament: 4.418 tons, 11,0%
      - Armour Deck: 2.234 tons, 5,6%
      - Conning Tower: 303 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2.746 tons, 6,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.889 tons, 39,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.060 tons, 15,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     58.039 lbs / 26.326 Kg = 48,4 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 10,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 8,1 ft / 2,5 m
   Roll period: 17,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,548
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,01 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,36 ft / 5,90 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Stern:      18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,78 ft / 6,33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159,8%
   Waterplane Area: 60.374 Square feet or 5.609 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 998 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,20
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

(looks for a corner to hide in)

[Ithekro]

It is just a bigger target at visual range.  Easier to hit.  Also like an egg in that she has Kongo like armor, but not even Invincible like speed.  The smaller projects can build 3 - 2 against her.

[maddox]

But she has range, a higher speed than most BB's, and with as much guns as she carries, a rain of shells goes the other way around.


Also, she's not a BB in the strick sence of the word. Not in the French books. She's the ultimate but flawed expression of the Jeune Ecole brought by old naval architects.
This is why I would prefer the 21 gunned ship.

The only reason not to build her is the pricetag.

[P3D]

Even France is limited to 12000SHP year 1909 turbines, until the next tech is developed (which can be reserached). These ships are powerfully armed colliers indeed :P.
Those deck mounted 5.5"s would be very unpopular during a  broadside.

The main advantage this monster has against BCs half the size and three turrets is the range. And that the enemy would mistake the broadside with the ship blowing up.

[Tanthalas]

The main advantage this monster has against BCs half the size and three turrets is the range. And that the enemy would mistake the broadside with the ship blowing up.

Im laughing IRL love that

[maddox]

The Exchequer got an heart attac from the pricetag on the first designs.  The 21 12" gunned version was liked most.
As it isn't a Battleship, most $ was saved by removing armor.

Agin, aheum, French Turret Farm laid down 1910

Displacement:
   28.615 t light; 30.160 t standard; 33.017 t normal; 35.303 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   728,35 ft / 721,78 ft x 114,83 ft x 26,97 ft (normal load)
   222,00 m / 220,00 m x 35,00 m  x 8,22 m

Armament:
      21 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (7x3 guns), 837,76lbs / 380,00kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      22 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 81,57lbs / 37,00kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      10 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 8,82lbs / 4,00kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      7 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 8,82lbs / 4,00kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 19.537 lbs / 8.862 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   12,86 ft / 3,92 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   252,60 ft / 76,99 m   12,86 ft / 3,92 m
   Upper:   5,00" / 127 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm            -
   3rd:         -      1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,75" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49.011 shp / 36.562 Kw = 23,00 kts
   Range 7.500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.143 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.224 - 1.592

Cost:
   £3,434 million / $13,737 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.525 tons, 7,6%
   Armour: 9.086 tons, 27,5%
      - Belts: 3.280 tons, 9,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 3.813 tons, 11,5%
      - Armour Deck: 1.816 tons, 5,5%
      - Conning Tower: 177 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 2.228 tons, 6,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.676 tons, 44,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.403 tons, 13,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     41.386 lbs / 18.773 Kg = 47,8 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 4,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
   Metacentric height 7,3 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 17,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,517
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,29 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,37 ft / 5,60 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,69 ft / 6,00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161,7%
   Waterplane Area: 56.091 Square feet or 5.211 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 205 lbs/sq ft or 1.000 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,16
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform