French battlecruiser???

[maddox]

Resiliente, French  battlecruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   10.989 t light; 11.479 t standard; 12.778 t normal; 13.817 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   492,13 ft / 492,13 ft x 68,90 ft x 24,93 ft (normal load)
   150,00 m / 150,00 m x 21,00 m  x 7,60 m

Armament:
      2 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns in single mounts, 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      3 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (1x3 guns), 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline amidships
      20 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 3.879 lbs / 1.760 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   319,88 ft / 97,50 m   9,71 ft / 2,96 m
   Ends:   7,87" / 200 mm   172,21 ft / 52,49 m   9,71 ft / 2,96 m
   Upper:   7,87" / 200 mm   319,88 ft / 97,50 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   7,87" / 200 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   3rd:   5,91" / 150 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 35.245 shp / 26.293 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2.338 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   600 - 781

Cost:
   £1,039 million / $4,155 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 485 tons, 3,8%
   Armour: 4.280 tons, 33,5%
      - Belts: 2.409 tons, 18,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 934 tons, 7,3%
      - Armour Deck: 845 tons, 6,6%
      - Conning Tower: 93 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 1.762 tons, 13,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.411 tons, 34,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.789 tons, 14,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16.865 lbs / 7.650 Kg = 26,6 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 2,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 3,6 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 15,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,529
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Stern:      15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,50 ft / 5,33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121,4%
   Waterplane Area: 23.203 Square feet or 2.156 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 609 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,94
      - Longitudinal: 1,75
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Desertfox]

Definately French, and definately a good idea (from the Swss POV). Thats a lot of armor you have, are you armoring the entire hull?

[maddox]

Yes, the entire hull is armored with at least 8" of armor. 
Even the casemates of the secundary guns have 6"

The reports from the Battle in the Indian Ocean aren't digested completely, but this is the first result.

By using 3 of the 20 left over 15000 HP turbine units this vessel can achive a fair speed (especialy for the French fleet), is immune for every kind of gun less than 6" and the lack of torpedo's will also give the captains the intention not to slose to knife range. That is also the reason why the 105mm guns are secundary, and not the faster firing , but shorter ranged and less damaging 70mm guns. This ship is not ment to close to less than 50 Hm.
The 5 275mm guns in the very unconventional 1-3-1 lay out give the flexibility to replace the Q turret by an existing twin 305 if the tripple is not what France wants.

[Korpen]

From the Netherlands perspective, undergunned.

Why no go for something like this: one knot faster and with twice the broadside.
For that, only 1500 ton larger, and similar scale of protection.

Draw 1, France Battlecruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   12 500 t light; 13 486 t standard; 15 416 t normal; 16 960 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   541,34 ft / 541,34 ft x 72,18 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   165,00 m / 165,00 m x 22,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 903,90lbs / 410,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      14 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
   Weight of broadside 7 972 lbs / 3 616 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,28" / 185 mm   344,49 ft / 105,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   1,97" / 50 mm   180,45 ft / 55,00 m   9,97 ft / 3,04 m
     16,40 ft / 5,00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      5,91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   1,97" / 50 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 0,98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 44 606 shp / 33 276 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 474 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   691 - 899

Cost:
   £1,554 million / $6,218 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 958 tons, 6,2 %
   Armour: 3 442 tons, 22,3 %
      - Belts: 1 547 tons, 10,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 911 tons, 5,9 %
      - Armour Deck: 971 tons, 6,3 %
      - Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,1 %
   Machinery: 2 230 tons, 14,5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 570 tons, 36,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 916 tons, 18,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15 003 lbs / 6 805 Kg = 17,3 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
   Metacentric height 4,2 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 14,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,526
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,27 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Mid (60 %):      18,04 ft / 5,50 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   14,90 ft / 4,54 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 26 667 Square feet or 2 477 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 696 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,42
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[maddox]

There are more and heavier main guns on the Dutch design, but, the disadvantages are glaring.

Both main as secundary guns are more vurnable, the use of an extra turbine, the 1500 tons extra and the overal resilience is lower.

If I could, I would try to cram all what I already have crammed on the Resiliente on 10 000 tons, and lose speed.  France, with all its far flung colonies needs more hulls in the water, not bigger.  The Chanson is already a monster, as well as Napoleon the Great.

[Korpen]

There are more and heavier main guns on the Dutch design, but, the disadvantages are glaring.

Both main as secundary guns are more vurnable, the use of an extra turbine, the 1500 tons extra and the overal resilience is lower.

If I could, I would try to cram all what I already have crammed on the Resiliente on 10 000 tons, and lose speed.  France, with all its far flung colonies needs more hulls in the water, not bigger.  The Chanson is already a monster, as well as Napoleon the Great.

A 75mm upper belt could be added by reducing the amount of misc weight.
And the ships I both faster and longer ranged the first ships, something that give her much greater strategic mobility, as well as conduct search at higher speed, covering greater amounts of sea.

But then I think the Netherlands and France will draw different conclusions from the Indian ocean fight.


Of course, as might be noticed by now, I always prefer to maximise firepower on my designs.

[Desertfox]

Why not go with the standard 3x2 gun layout? Other than that I would reduce ends and upper armor to 150mm, still good protection at less cost. Ship could then be made smaller.

[maddox]

Too conventional if you ask me.  Isn't "French" enough. But yes, I could dump a few tons and gain a main gun.
Still a tough cookie. Especialy for its size.

Resiliente, French  battlecruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   10.808 t light; 11.321 t standard; 12.610 t normal; 13.641 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   492,13 ft / 492,13 ft x 68,90 ft x 24,61 ft (normal load)
   150,00 m / 150,00 m x 21,00 m  x 7,50 m

Armament:
      6 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (2x3 guns), 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      20 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4.514 lbs / 2.047 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   319,88 ft / 97,50 m   9,71 ft / 2,96 m
   Ends:   5,91" / 150 mm   172,21 ft / 52,49 m   9,71 ft / 2,96 m
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   319,88 ft / 97,50 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   5,91" / 150 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 34.965 shp / 26.084 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2.320 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   594 - 773

Cost:
   £1,097 million / $4,388 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 564 tons, 4,5%
   Armour: 3.980 tons, 31,6%
      - Belts: 2.069 tons, 16,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 974 tons, 7,7%
      - Armour Deck: 845 tons, 6,7%
      - Conning Tower: 92 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 1.748 tons, 13,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.466 tons, 35,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.802 tons, 14,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15.650 lbs / 7.099 Kg = 24,7 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 3,6 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 15,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,529
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Stern:      15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,50 ft / 5,33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122,6%
   Waterplane Area: 23.203 Square feet or 2.156 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 619 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,77
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Desertfox]

Hmm how about 4 singles (middle ones en echelon) with 4 twin heavy secondaries?

[maddox]

Good try Foxy.... ;) 
All centerline seems the way to go for the future according to the Jeune Ecole thinkers. Also, Admiral Geon is hard working to avoid stupidities like The Greater Napoleon in the future. Unfortunatly, he was a bit late to stop Chanson.

[maddox]

With everybody pushing up the ante in speed and firepower in the battleship department, France is getting in dire straits with the amount of hulls for colonial protection.

The cast off of the West Indies frees up shipping, as only a cruiser squadron from Africa will be shared on the carribean duty.

But it doesn't diminish the need for stonger, faster and especialy more imposing ships.

Resiliente was a nice try and a real AC to her name.  But designers prompted by a newspaper daily story worked out a hommage to Minister DeCreme.
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1690&mforum=warshipprojects

DeCreme, French Battlecruiser laid down 1910

Displacement:
   19.003 t light; 19.814 t standard; 21.087 t normal; 22.106 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   664,61 ft / 649,61 ft x 90,00 ft x 24,00 ft (normal load)
   202,57 m / 198,00 m x 27,43 m  x 7,32 m

Armament:
      6 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6.707 lbs / 3.042 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   459,32 ft / 140,00 m   11,38 ft / 3,47 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   190,26 ft / 57,99 m   11,38 ft / 3,47 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   422,50 ft / 128,78 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 109% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      0,50" / 13 mm   590,55 ft / 180,00 m   26,25 ft / 8,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 60.078 shp / 44.818 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2.293 tons

Complement:
   874 - 1.137

Cost:
   £1,702 million / $6,808 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 821 tons, 3,9%
   Armour: 7.343 tons, 34,8%
      - Belts: 3.249 tons, 15,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 287 tons, 1,4%
      - Armament: 1.429 tons, 6,8%
      - Armour Deck: 2.214 tons, 10,5%
      - Conning Tower: 164 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2.483 tons, 11,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.957 tons, 37,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.084 tons, 9,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29.840 lbs / 13.535 Kg = 34,5 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 5,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,03
   Metacentric height 4,5 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 17,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 90 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,526
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 73
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28,04 ft / 8,55 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Stern:      17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,67 ft / 5,69 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155,2%
   Waterplane Area: 39.897 Square feet or 3.707 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 717 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,12
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

the 400 tons misc weight are Crew comfort increasing messures like insulation on temperature and noise in the crew quarters, temperature control (also for the midship magazine), a big marconi, and 2 sets of ears.

[Desertfox]

Very heavily armored but lightly armed. Do you really need all that armor?

OOC Are the 'Ears' Radar or an Acoustic device?

[maddox]

OOC, you have no idea.

But I think the name gives it away.

*****************************************************************
As you notice, even with the "not BB scale" armor, she's very well armored,and has incredible stamina for her purpose. 
She's a cross between the "new N-verse- France BB's" and the IRL German BS of WW I.

I could change a few things, diminishing the armor, and gaining longer range. but that I can do equaly well by reducing the cruise speed. What will be done when it is needed in the N-verse.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Are you sure about the deck mounted 5,5" guns?
Borys

[maddox]

Why shouldn't I be. Without a flaw like that, she wouldn't be French, would she?

Casemated or superfiring would be better.