1908 Confederate CDS (projected)

[The Rock Doctor]

The CSA design here is employing single mounts with hoists.  There is no armor value assigned to the "Other/Gunhouse" category.  There is no mention of powered mounts.  Therefore, I fail to see how this violates our agreed-upon rules. 

5-6" in deck mountings are unprotected, and no naval board would have allowed them.

Isn't this precisely how such guns are mounted on protected cruisers?

We can all argue that it's not a smart idea, but I don't think the moderating team has any business telling Carthaginian that he can't do it for that reason.  If he wants to design a ship that has flaws, that's his business.

[Carthaginian]

I'm going to change the whole kit & caboodle today.
Just seems to have stirred up too much controversy the way that it was done.

I was just thinking about the minimum ship necessary to combat the (probably poor) DRM battleships- which would probably be 20-ish year old pre-dreads with a max gun bore of 12". I had initially wanted to mount 2 x 13.5" in single turrets & 10 x 6" singles in shield-mounted hoists... basically making a newer class of pre-dread. I was limited by my desire to have the ships ready ASAP, though, and settled on something that would actually look 'stopgap-ish'- a ship riddled with problems based on a desire to get it in service immediately.

I'll go back and rethink it, then redesign something that'll be less expensive than the Nuevo Leon's and can actually do some damage, then.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I just wanted to add that I disagree with P3D on the singles. The potential that a single hit - and which doesn't have to be a lucky hit in the sense that it hits some particualry delicate spot - will make many a captain pause.
Only the capitans of the largest ACs and battleships may approach this ship safe in the thought that they will give better than they get. And I'd expect weaker hearted AC capitains to turn around.

Borys

[Carthaginian]

That's kind of what I was thinking: when a 13.5" shell is fired at anything short of a battleship, the term 'lucky hit' largely means 'hits something substantial enough inside to explode rather than passing right through.' Either way, you still have a hole in the side of the ship big enough to pitch a dog through, and  that hole is going to be letting water in and air out... which is very counter-productive to the ship staying afloat.

These ships weren't really meant to fight- just, as you pointed out in the NZ thread, to make the enemy think that a fight might wind up being more expensive for their side than mine... win or loose.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Yes - to be sure of winning, two ACs would have to go after one coastal battleship. That is 25-30$ of ships chasing one 5$ ship. And still run the risk that catching one 13,5 shell in the snout means "Golden Twinkie".

Borys

[Carthaginian]

I planned two pair of these, with each pair always operating together.
In the event of a real fight (after 1910 at least) Virginia would be available to serve as a division flagship for the massed group. That would make 14 x 13.5" guns... a fair force to go up against an amphibious landing or pre-dreadnought fleet.

I know her armor is light, I might alter that; I can increase thickness if I sacrifice coverage, removing the upper belt portion. That would give her adequate protection against another battleship.

[The Rock Doctor]

I planned two pair of these, with each pair always operating together.

Ah - then I must play Devil's Advocate and ask why you wouldn't just build two ships in the ~12-13 kton range.  The single larger ship ought to be capable of carrying four main guns, heavier armor, and have better speed than two smaller vessels...

[Carthaginian]

I planned two pair of these, with each pair always operating together.

Ah - then I must play Devil's Advocate and ask why you wouldn't just build two ships in the ~12-13 kton range.  The single larger ship ought to be capable of carrying four main guns, heavier armor, and have better speed than two smaller vessels...

Because the two smaller ships 'operating together' (within easy response time) can be up to a couple of hundred miles apart- anywhere from 75 miles to 200+ miles, depending on the type of wireless they use. Two forces, each made up of of 5-6 destroyers, 3-4 cruisers and one of these ships, can patrol almost 3 times the amount of coast in peacetime as your 'single 12kt ship.'

These ships are meant to make hitting my coasts expensive during wartime, and cover maximum area in peacetime. Two larger ships might be tougher on the open sea, but they can't be in as many places at once along the coast. They are one target, these ships present two... meaning that you have to face two ships maneuvering against you, and that can sink one and half the guns are still there.

I wanted to maximize the area covered and the trouble to the enemy, and so I went with two smaller ships cooperating rather than one larger one acting independently.



The independent acting ships are on the drawing boards... and they are not too shabby.

[Ithekro]

Well the Rohirrim take on the design gets the vessel 4 main guns and 4 secondaries per side.  She's a bit slow and only really has the armor to take on armored cruisers, but with a 16 foot draft, she can go places most armored cruiser can't and thus may be able to use her weapon's greater range to her advantage.  I was trying for an even shallower draft vessel, but I can't do one with anything better than 14 or 15 knots speed.

I suspect that if one were to make the turret(s) superimposed (on paper) then a draft as low as 8 feet might work...or use turrets without barbettes (tricky to tell what that would do) to make a vessel that can operate like a monitor of old.  However all attempt I've made have resulted (unsuperingly) in vessels that are poor seaboats.  If the ability to keep going in heavy weather is of no concern than a ligher vessel is possible...especially if speed is not an issue. (However I've had trouble making a vessel with triple expansion engines rather than turbines on a vessel of this size).

[The Rock Doctor]

Thanks - obviously I was thinking that "operating together" pretty much meant in visual range or thereabouts.

[P3D]

As far as people do not abuse it putting 6" guns in armored deck mounts on battleships, I see no problem. This is CDBB, so the weaklyy protected gunmounts should be OK.

However, I still feel that the old shallow-draft CSA predreadnoughts are perfect for such a role, and building new ships just a waste of BP. In political language, it is still two new ships authorized, replacing one, with only a marginal increase in utility. The Department of Treasury might be pushing it, but not the Department or Navy or whatever.

[Ithekro]

Considering they only have the 8 battleships (two of which are the ex-Rohirrim ships) They don't have much of a battleline is the fleet is set on coastal defense.  The new Virginias might be a next step, but the shallowest draft for this fleet is 20 feet verse the deepest which seems to be 22 feet.  Not much difference there.

The only two Confederate ships suited to coastal defense work rather than being first rate battleships (for the moment) are the Nevada-class with their 17 knots speed, 20 feet draft and 7.5 inch secondaries.  The old Rohirrim ships are also suited for thos roll in the Pacific only because they are slow.  The rest of therieforce is fairly standardized.

Thus to cover more area with heavy guns, the CSA would need some dedicated coastal defense ships to cover the Gulf Coast and the Atlantic Coast.  For the cost (in building materials) for one Virginia the CSA can build three (four gunned) Fort Morgan types or almost two Nevada types.  While the Virginia is far more impressive, the individual states might be more willing to fund smaller vessels, especially the inner states if they can get something from their state named on it.

[Walter]

Eventhough the deck mount issue seems to be solved (more or less):

From Janes' Frightening ships...

BBs/ACs with deck mounts: just the 1 class
Fr. BB Charlemagne (1894), a pair of 5.5 secondaries

A few more from British Battleships 1860-1950...

Ajax (1876), 6 inch secondary deck mounts
Italia( 1877, Italy). 6 inch secondaries deck mounts
Royal Sovereign (1889), 6 inch secondaries deck mounts
Hood (1889), 6 inch secondaries deck mounts
Centurion (1890), 4.7 inch secondaries deck mounts

Nice book BTW. Secondaries go from nothing to... 'something' to deck mounts + casemates to casemates to deck mounts to turrets.
Deck mount/casemate mix to only casemate on BBs of the RN pretty much happened after the Centurion class (as far as I can see).

Conclusion: Be smart. Think of the well-being of your gunnery crews and use casemates for your secondaries. :D

As far as people do not abuse it putting 6" guns in armored deck mounts on battleships

Also, looking in Janes', I came across 10 classes of ships which uses turretted secondaries (<7 inch caliber) before 1910. So what you are saying is that if those ships would exist in the Navalism universe, they would be violating our rules (couple of Russian classes even had the 6 inch guns in twin turrets).

[Korpen]

I know this is a VERY radical departure from a cost defence ship, but it carries three times the firepower on twice the tonnage. And with the high speed, long range and oil firing it can outrun everything on the high seas.
In fact it is close to the Netherlands design policy: "Firepower über alles".
The only drawback is the paperthin armour...

And yes, i am in a BC "period";)

Killer, CSA BC laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   10 600 t light; 11 501 t standard; 13 335 t normal; 14 802 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   518,37 ft / 518,37 ft x 68,90 ft x 22,97 ft (normal load)
   158,00 m / 158,00 m x 21,00 m  x 7,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1 250,00lbs / 566,99kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      14 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37,48lbs / 17,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
   Weight of broadside 8 025 lbs / 3 640 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   351,05 ft / 107,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   0,98" / 25 mm   167,32 ft / 51,00 m   6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Upper:   0,98" / 25 mm   328,08 ft / 100,00 m   6,56 ft / 2,00 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   2,95" / 75 mm      3,94" / 100 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 42 229 shp / 31 503 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 11 600nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 301 tons

Complement:
   619 - 806

Cost:
   £1,460 million / $5,838 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 976 tons, 7,3 %
   Armour: 2 335 tons, 17,5 %
      - Belts: 904 tons, 6,8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 484 tons, 3,6 %
      - Armour Deck: 924 tons, 6,9 %
      - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0,2 %
   Machinery: 1 919 tons, 14,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 319 tons, 39,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 735 tons, 20,5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12 750 lbs / 5 783 Kg = 10,4 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 1,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
   Metacentric height 4,2 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 14,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,83
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,569
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,52 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25,20 ft / 7,68 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Mid (66 %):      18,04 ft / 5,50 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   15,83 ft / 4,82 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103,4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 25 374 Square feet or 2 357 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 706 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,54
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Ithekro]

Mainly you'll find the odd ships with turreted medium guns in the French (6.4" and 5.5"), German (6.7" singles mostly), Russian (6" twins), Swedish (6" single turrets and twin turret primaries on Fylgia) and the odd vessel here and there in other navies (A twin 5.5" open mount on a Spanish vessel and twin 4.7" turrets on the Italian Dante Alighieri and the Chilean Capitan Prat).