New Zion Cruiser

[Korpen]

The Mozambique Channel is a bit different from the Baltic Sea, which puts Zion into a completely different strategical situation making Swedish and Finnish comparison irrelevant.

And there were reasons why it is not allowed to build turreted 6" secondaries. Some severe Hindsightitis some players apparently suffers from.

While i disagree with the opinion about the ships being obsolete, i think it is really a matter of Zionese doctrine.
I would imagine that would not be too far from the historic Sweden, that is a realization that they will have a smaller and less powerful navy then the neighbours, and not capable to fight them one-on-one. However, if they only invest in small cruisers and light forces, it means that a potential enemy can defeat them with only old and/or secondary forces.
Therefore it is a need for either a few large, or at least heavily armed ships that an hurt older BBs and ACs, requiring the potential enemy to commit major forces, and therefore risk first line ships in the mine infested waters. In effect a risk theory, that require a enemy to commit his main effort or be uncertain of success, and even then, (if the ship get big enogh guns) his main battlelinerisks being hurt by the ships.
In that context, a small slow ships with four 25cm (28 or 30cm would be even better) guns and aggressive doctrine makes allot of sense.

[P3D]

The proposed ship does not stand a good chance against a preDN. 10" guns and the armor is not enough. Alternatively, not fast enough to catch old ACs - there are other people around, not only the DKB.
That's why I argue why NZ should buy old BBs. Zion should  be able to acquire one in the 18-month timeframe, even if it is obsolete or not rebuilt. Alternative is to build a true coastal defence ship on the same or a bit bigger displacement, but as you say with 4x11" or 12" to pose any credible threat.

[Korpen]

The proposed ship does not stand a good chance against a preDN. 10" guns and the armor is not enough. Alternatively, not fast enough to catch old ACs - there are other people around, not only the DKB.
That's why I argue why NZ should buy old BBs. Zion should  be able to acquire one in the 18-month timeframe, even if it is obsolete or not rebuilt. Alternative is to build a true coastal defence ship on the same or a bit bigger displacement, but as you say with 4x11" or 12" to pose any credible threat.

I agree on the 25cm guns, she will need at least 28cm, but the larger the better (hell, i got 35cm guns for sale ;)). But do not think the lack of speed matters much as NZ will not be able to wage a war on the high seas, so the navy will strategically be defensive. This means that it do not matter much if the enemy will be able to run away, as if they run away the ships are a success, they have forced the enemy to abandon their mission.

NZ will never be able to sustain fleet action against a major power, so the intention must be to make any fight against the NZ fleet as risky as possible, this means firepower, and more firepower. Armour is nice, but as the primary purpose of the ships are deterrence, so the capability to hurt any ships is the singel most important ability.

Of course NZ could have a completely different strategy...


And if anyone is selling old BBs, the Netherlands is more then willing to buy... :)

[Ithekro]

That means the older Rohirrim doctrine...firepower over speed (and over armor it seems).

While the Bregos will not be up for sale for some time yet, the similar vintage combat cruisers and armored cruisers may be up for sale within the next year.  The older combat cruisers are armed with 11" and 9" guns (older models) while the armored cruisers are armed with just 9" guns and have good range.  None of these older Rohirrim ships have anything even remotely approaching a good speed (with 13 - 15 knots being best speed) and their armor is 6 - 8 inches of Harvey-nickel steel at best.

New Zion would require a fleet in being rather than a battle line or attack fleet.  The enemy will come to them.  Slow ships with "long" ranged guns that can penetrate thick armor at range are all they require...I'd assume in numbers and with as many heavy guns as possible.  Remember, 20 knots is still fast for a battleship right now.  23 knots is fast for a cruiser.  Only a few turbine ships, or huge vessels are going make any better than 23 knots (not counting destroyers and the like).

[Korpen]

Maybe somthing like this?
(And yes, i have just managed to get a bit more free time :))

Armour is enough to protect against older AC (at range) and from fire from light cruisers.
The firepower on the other hand is superior to most ships around. :)

The Ark, New Zion Almighty crusher of hostiles laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   5 600 t light; 6 214 t standard; 6 997 t normal; 7 624 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   282,15 ft / 282,15 ft x 65,62 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
   86,00 m / 86,00 m x 20,00 m  x 6,00 m

Armament:
      4 - 13,78" / 350 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1 322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 5 714 lbs / 2 592 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 147

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   196,85 ft / 60,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1,97" / 50 mm   196,85 ft / 60,00 m   6,56 ft / 2,00 m
     Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      3,54" / 90 mm
   2nd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,73" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 3,94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9 000 shp / 6 714 Kw = 17,15 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 410 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   382 - 497

Cost:
   £0,852 million / $3,408 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 707 tons, 10,1 %
   Armour: 1 661 tons, 23,7 %
      - Belts: 804 tons, 11,5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 363 tons, 5,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 464 tons, 6,6 %
      - Conning Tower: 31 tons, 0,4 %
   Machinery: 446 tons, 6,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 766 tons, 39,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 397 tons, 20,0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0,3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6 797 lbs / 3 083 Kg = 5,2 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 1,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
   Metacentric height 3,6 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 14,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,74
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,672
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,30 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,80 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   13,39 ft / 4,08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 14 470 Square feet or 1 344 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 689 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,86
      - Longitudinal: 3,60
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[Desertfox]

The problem is PD. She is capable of 20kts and has 13" guns. Any New Zion ship has to be able to either avoid her or fight her. While the Ark is nice I dont think she would be able to stand up to PD and cant avoid her. Hence the slowest speed for a NZ ship should be 20kts. I choose the 10" guns because that is what NZ currently has, the need to avoid multiple calibres is a must for small countries.

[Korpen]

The problem is PD. She is capable of 20kts and has 13" guns. Any New Zion ship has to be able to either avoid her or fight her. While the Ark is nice I dont think she would be able to stand up to PD and cant avoid her. Hence the slowest speed for a NZ ship should be 20kts. I choose the 10" guns because that is what NZ currently has, the need to avoid multiple calibres is a must for small countries.

I disagree, while a fight between PD and the Ark is clearly in favour of PD (and PD is more then twice as large), it is by no means a certain outcome, the 35cm guns on the Ark has a good chance to penetrate the old armour of PD at combat distances. As i see it, the most important function of NZ ships is to defend the homeland, this means that the capability to hurt the enemy is always most important. If the ship do not carry armament powerful enough to damage enemy capital ships, they are useless, sure they can run around, but they cannot force the enemy to react to them. But if the ship carry gun powerful enough to hurt every ship in the fleet, then capital units have to be deployed, even in areas were they are at risks from mines, and to much lesser extent torpedoes.

There is no need for a small country to standardise, as the numbers of components and equipment are so small there is no economy of scale.Especially in this ere, when almost all components are fitted by hand.

[P3D]

At combat distances of 5000-6000 yard, even older 11" guns with AP ha a very good chance of penetrating old armor.

[Ithekro]

What a New Zion Coastal Battleship needs to have an edge on P.D. is a reliable method of being able to hit a target at long range.  That means either some kind of fire control, or more guns to have more chances to hit the target.

As for speed, it will take you about 2,000 tons and 25 feet to get 1 more knot our of her. Or about 80 more feet and 2,000 tons to get a third turret on her.

P.D. doesn't have old armor.  He has Krupps armor.  Old 11" guns are going to have a little trouble penetrating 325mm of Krupps armor.

[Ithekro]

If the armor is struck straight on, then a old 11" can penetrate the belt armor on P.D. at around 5,500 yard or so.  If they are at an angle, then its probably less.  This is using the older Rohirrim 11"/36 cal guns.  The slightly newer 11"/42 cal guns on the combat cruisers could do better, but you are dealing with twu guns in one turret at best for each ship.

However, I would think the point of a defense ship would be to try to outrange the aggressor by attacking outside of 6,000 yards effectively.  Maybe as far away as 10,000 or even 12,000 yards.

[Desertfox]

However there are two points to consider. First is previous experience, the second one is economy. NS is advising and my experience has shown that even small Coastal BBs can hurt and force Battleships to react, and that torpedoes can hurt. Also economy plays a big part in a country such as NZ. The smaller and cheaper a ship the better.

The guns Im offering to NZ are new 10"/45 cal with Capped Shells, should be capable of defeating PD's armor. NS more than anyone else practices for long range fire and the guns can fire heavier shells.



4th version, strips the ship of everything unecesary, resulting in a very cheap ship (7,400 tons for 2). Should still be a match for Bismark, and two of them can hurt PD. The Secondaries are on mount and hoist eliminating THAT problem.

Jerusalem, New Zion Cruiser laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3,707 t light; 4,095 t standard; 4,661 t normal; 5,114 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   370.00 ft / 370.00 ft x 47.00 ft x 17.70 ft (normal load)
   112.78 m / 112.78 m x 14.33 m  x 5.39 m

Armament:
      4 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (2x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2,540 lbs / 1,152 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   230.00 ft / 70.10 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   1.50" / 38 mm   140.00 ft / 42.67 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   1.50" / 38 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   1.50" / 38 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,146 shp / 7,569 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 3,900nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,020 tons

Complement:
   281 - 366

Cost:
   £0.461 million / $1.844 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 318 tons, 6.8 %
   Armour: 1,005 tons, 21.6 %
      - Belts: 458 tons, 9.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 187 tons, 4.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 331 tons, 7.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 30 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 461 tons, 9.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,823 tons, 39.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 954 tons, 20.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,590 lbs / 2,082 Kg = 9.2 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 14.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.530
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.87 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.24 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (30 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   9.63 ft / 2.93 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,912 Square feet or 1,107 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 104 lbs/sq ft or 506 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.46
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

[P3D]

Only two countries have capped shells right now.
Selling capped shells to Zion is like the US selling F-16s and AMRAAM to Pakistan, but with complete documentation of source codes and electronics.
It would reduce research effort to duplicate the shells for a few countries tremendously though.

I know of three countries that practice long range fire more than NS.

[Desertfox]

The US has a history of selling the newest technology to Israel, New Switzerland is taking the same mindset to New Zion,even to the point of supplying them with free stuff in this case three submarines. And its not so much giving the technology but simply supplying the shells for the Swiss made guns.

BTW the US has sold F-16s and AMRAAM to Pakistan.

As for long range fire I don't think ANYONE practices so much as NS. Especially after the damage I suffered due to torpedoes. Take a look at my ships, they have heavier than normal deck armor and heavy shells, consistent with long range fire. They are a direct result of NS tactics of Hit & Run. A standard battleline vs battleline battle involving NS would see the NS BBs staying as far away as possible providing only covering and spoiling fire for the DDs going in for the killer punch. My ships are not design for a decisive range battle.

[P3D]

The conclusion of those exercises was that the NS ships have abysmal hit probabilities at long ranges, takes a long time to get the range determined, due to the fact that the only way available to determine the range is by ranging shots, and they have practically zero chance to hit anything but the water if a distant target moves at a speed higher than 3 knots.

The US does not sold the source code documentation (which was my point). That would have made the Chinese job to reverse-engineer the stuff almost trivial.

Getting hold of some shells would be relatively easy for some countries, which has higher intelligence expediture than the Zionese Navy operating budget.

[Ithekro]

Well it is either capped 10" shells or be more traditional, bigger shells.  An older 10" shell of this period (non-capped) should still be able to penetrate the armor on P.D. at around 4,000 yard, where a newer 10" gun will penetrate around 5,500 yards.  In theory anyway.  In practice niether would probably penetrate regularly until 3,500 yards or less.

So 11" or 12" should be standaed if the intended target is P.D.  If it is anything less, 10" will do.  A 14" or so would make an impression for sure, especially if once can make hitting out to 10,000 yards standard verses P.D.'s 6,000 yards.