Coast Guns

[KWorld]

I've been doing a little investigating on these, along with some designing.  It turns out that SS3, for deck mounts, does a very good job of estimating the weight of smaller guns (like would normally be mounted on deck mounts) and short-barrelled guns (like coast defence mortars).  The weights for a 12" L10 gun that SS3 generates for a deck mount are the same as what Landships (http://www.landships.freeservers.com/305mm_morser_m11.htm) quotes for the Austro-Hungarian 30.5cm Morser M11: SS3 says 20 long tons, Landships says 20.83 metric tons.  For big, long guns, if you use turret & barbette mounts, the weights are also very comparable: for a 1919 16"/50, SS3 says 475 long tons, the historical US M1919 was 484 tons.  If you go to open barbette mounts for these big guns, SS3 drops to 460 long tons.

[KWorld]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1919
Barbette ship

Displacement:
   -96 t light; 0 t standard; 0 t normal; 0 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (0.00 ft / 0.00 ft) x 0.00 ft x (0.00 / NaN ft)
   (0.00 m / 0.00 m) x 0.00 m  x (0.00 / NaN m)

Armament:
      1 - 15.98" / 406 mm 50.0 cal gun - 2,161.70lbs / 980.53kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading gun in open barbette mount, 1919 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline amidships (forward deck)
      Weight of broadside 2,162 lbs / 981 kg

Machinery:
   Immobile floating battery

Complement:
   0 - 0

Cost:
   £0.335 million / $1.338 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 460 tons, 0.0 %
      - Guns: 460 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: NaN tons, 0.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 96 tons, 0.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     NaN lbs / NaN Kg = NaN x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or NaN torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): NaN
   Metacentric height NaN ft / NaN m
   Roll period: NaN seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): NaN %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): NaN
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): NaN

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / NaN
   Length to Beam Ratio: NaN : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 0.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 0 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): NaN
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): NaN
   Waterplane Area: 0 Square feet or 0 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): NaN
   Structure weight / hull surface area: NaN lbs/sq ft or NaN Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: NaN
      - Longitudinal: NaN
      - Overall: NaN
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Enter percentage of bunker tonnage devoted to coal fired boilers

[KWorld]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1900

Displacement:
   -10 t light; 0 t standard; 0 t normal; 0 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (0.00 ft / 0.00 ft) x 0.00 ft x (0.00 / NaN ft)
   (0.00 m / 0.00 m) x 0.00 m  x (0.00 / NaN m)

Armament:
      1 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal gun - 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1900 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline amidships (forward deck)
      Weight of broadside 100 lbs / 45 kg

Machinery:
   Immobile floating battery

Complement:
   0 - 0

Cost:
   £0.005 million / $0.018 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 13 tons, 0.0 %
      - Guns: 13 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: NaN tons, 0.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 10 tons, 0.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     NaN lbs / NaN Kg = NaN x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or NaN torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): NaN
   Metacentric height NaN ft / NaN m
   Roll period: NaN seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): NaN %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): NaN
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): NaN

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / NaN
   Length to Beam Ratio: NaN : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 0.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 0 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): NaN
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): NaN
   Waterplane Area: 0 Square feet or 0 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): NaN
   Structure weight / hull surface area: NaN lbs/sq ft or NaN Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: NaN
      - Longitudinal: NaN
      - Overall: NaN
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Enter percentage of bunker tonnage devoted to coal fired boilers

[KWorld]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1900

Displacement:
   -34 t light; 0 t standard; 0 t normal; 0 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (0.00 ft / 0.00 ft) x 0.00 ft x (0.00 / NaN ft)
   (0.00 m / 0.00 m) x 0.00 m  x (0.00 / NaN m)

Armament:
      1 - 12.01" / 305 mm 15.0 cal gun - 766.81lbs / 347.82kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1900 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline amidships (forward deck)
      Weight of broadside 767 lbs / 348 kg

Machinery:
   Immobile floating battery

Complement:
   0 - 0

Cost:
   £0.011 million / $0.043 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 26 tons, 0.0 %
      - Guns: 26 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: NaN tons, 0.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 34 tons, 0.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     NaN lbs / NaN Kg = NaN x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or NaN torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): NaN
   Metacentric height NaN ft / NaN m
   Roll period: NaN seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): NaN %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): NaN
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): NaN

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / NaN
   Length to Beam Ratio: NaN : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 0.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 0 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): NaN
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): NaN
   Waterplane Area: 0 Square feet or 0 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): NaN
   Structure weight / hull surface area: NaN lbs/sq ft or NaN Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: NaN
      - Longitudinal: NaN
      - Overall: NaN
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Enter percentage of bunker tonnage devoted to coal fired boilers

[KWorld]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1900

Displacement:
   -34 t light; 0 t standard; 0 t normal; 0 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (0.00 ft / 0.00 ft) x 0.00 ft x (0.00 / NaN ft)
   (0.00 m / 0.00 m) x 0.00 m  x (0.00 / NaN m)

Armament:
      1 - 12.01" / 305 mm 10.0 cal gun - 758.30lbs / 343.96kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1910 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline amidships (forward deck)
      Weight of broadside 758 lbs / 344 kg

Machinery:
   Immobile floating battery

Complement:
   0 - 0

Cost:
   £0.007 million / $0.027 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 17 tons, 0.0 %
      - Guns: 17 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: NaN tons, 0.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 34 tons, 0.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     NaN lbs / NaN Kg = NaN x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or NaN torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): NaN
   Metacentric height NaN ft / NaN m
   Roll period: NaN seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): NaN %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): NaN
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): NaN

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / NaN
   Length to Beam Ratio: NaN : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 0.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 0 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): NaN
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): NaN
   Waterplane Area: 0 Square feet or 0 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): NaN
   Structure weight / hull surface area: NaN lbs/sq ft or NaN Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: NaN
      - Longitudinal: NaN
      - Overall: NaN
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Enter percentage of bunker tonnage devoted to coal fired boilers

[Carthaginian]

Actually, for the 12"/L11 mortar, I get 22 tons.

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 22 tons, 0.0 %
      - Guns: 22 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: NaN tons, 0.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 63 tons, 0.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

I'm interested in this, but I have to know exactly what kinds of mounts the Historic guns were in compared to those you are using in SpringSharp. There were no Turret & Barbette coastal guns in the U.S. AFIK, unless you want to count the rather unusual case of Fort Drum in the Philippines.

We might be better off using historic guns to determine a general weight for coastal guns and just using them that way; SpringSharp could then be used to 'fill in the gaps.'

[KWorld]

The Skoda M.11 was a L/10 gun that was ordered into production in 1911.


My point was that you can't use deck mounts for 16" guns and get realistic tonnage numbers out of Springsharp.  You get reasonable numbers out of SS3 if you use barbette mountings for the big, long-barrelled guns.

[Carthaginian]

Which is one of the reasons I support using either 1.) SS numbers ONLY and accepting the difference or 2.) using only historic guns and letting SpringSharp simply 'fill in the gaps'.

Either way, we'll either just have to accept that everything is equally broken for everybody, and smile.

We might have to give a vote on this one.
Lemmie think about it tonight at work. :)

[snip]

from a simplicty standpoint, the more we can do in SS, the better IMO

[KWorld]

The US M1919 coast guns were mounted on a mounting called "U.S. Barbette Carriage M1919", per here: http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM5DJ0_16_Inch_Coast_Defense_Gun_Aberdeen_MD.

[Carthaginian]

Given the appearance of the mount, it appears to be similar to the gun mount INSIDE the turret of the Alabama (save the manual versus powered training). It would, honestly, be more like a 'Coles/Ericsson turret' mount than anything else... a turntable with a fixed mount on top.
The fun thing is that the mount weighs not one iota more than the 'Turret on Barbette' mount- 476 tons.

I think that a 'Coles/Ericsson turret' would be the best way to simulate this mount, and the 'Turret on Barbette' mount should be used for mounts like those cannibalized from the planned refit of the Gneisenau.

[KWorld]

A possible home for old 12" guns, once their current mounts are retired.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1910

Displacement:
   -58 t light; 0 t standard; 0 t normal; 0 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (0.00 ft / 0.00 ft) x 0.00 ft x (0.00 / NaN ft)
   (0.00 m / 0.00 m) x 0.00 m  x (0.00 / NaN m)

Armament:
      1 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal gun - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading gun in Coles/Ericsson turret mount, 1900 Model
     1 x Single mount layout not set
      Weight of broadside 873 lbs / 396 kg

Machinery:
   Immobile floating battery

Complement:
   0 - 0

Cost:
   £0.079 million / $0.318 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 191 tons, 0.0 %
      - Guns: 191 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: NaN tons, 0.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 58 tons, 0.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     NaN lbs / NaN Kg = NaN x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or NaN torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): NaN
   Metacentric height NaN ft / NaN m
   Roll period: NaN seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): NaN %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): NaN
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): NaN

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / NaN
   Length to Beam Ratio: NaN : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 0.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 0 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Aft deck:   0.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): NaN
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): NaN
   Waterplane Area: 0 Square feet or 0 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): NaN
   Structure weight / hull surface area: NaN lbs/sq ft or NaN Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: NaN
      - Longitudinal: NaN
      - Overall: NaN
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide

[KWorld]

Another site with more info on US coast guns....  http://www.cdsg.org/HDCRdata/armament.htm

[Carthaginian]

An EXCELLENT site... good pictures and great summaries on the types of mountings.
Lets us know a lot about what we're building.

[KWorld]

Another site: www.coastdefense.com